Words by Brian Howe
December 8, 2003

Dave Pajo has left a large footprint on independent music, weaving in and out of the narrative with a knack for surfacing at salient moments. He played on Slint’s seminal Spiderland and spent time in Tortoise. He’s supported Will Oldham on numerous tours and projects. He’s created a vast body of solo work under the guises of M, Aerial M and Papa M, combining the traditional folk of Oldham with the coruscating dissonance of Slint. And he’s even blipped on the mainstream radar with a stint in Billy Corgan’s short-lived band, Zwan.

In the following discussion of Zwan, it’s interesting to note how easily Pajo and I slipped into referring to the mainstream music arena as the “other world,” as if it weren’t merely a separate industry, but actually some cold, remote and alien planet that can be viewed from afar but seldom explored.

I’m not going to ask you about Slint or Tortoise.
Oh cool, thanks.

But I was hoping to discuss life after Zwan. What’s it like to go from playing with people like Billy Corgan in big venues and doing mainstream press, to coming back to places like this and talking to guys like me again?
I feel like I’m back in my element again. It’s a lot more tangible. I’m glad I did it, because now I understand the other world and how it works and what’s actually going on. But I’m also very glad to not be in it any more.

It seems like the division between indie and mainstream music is becoming more imbricate, and the membrane between them more porous. There’s more stuff passing back and forth. But there still is a division, and it must be strange to pass to the other side of it so abruptly.
Yeah, we made videos. We played Letterman, Saturday Night Live, and I’ve seen it briefly on TV and DVD and stuff, but I can’t watch it. If I’m flipping channels and the video is on, I’ll always change it immediately. I’ll watch it in 20 years.

It’s part of the culture that seems so remote from our influence and from anything real, and to suddenly be a part of that, I imagine, must be very jarring, like waking up into a dream.
It was definitely bizarre. But the cool thing about it was that every day, something that had never happened to me before would happen, and that was kind of amazing.

How did you become involved in Zwan and breach that world in the first place?
Through Matt Sweeny. We had played together in Will Oldham’s band, and he’s been friends with Billy for a long time. I was actually in L.A. mastering Whatever, Mortal when they were auditioning bass players, and they invited me to see where they were practicing. We just got along and ended up playing together.

Are there any misperceptions about the division between indie and mainstream that, after having participated in both, you can say, ‘Well, it’s really not that clear cut.’
There are a lot of similarities; the similarities are insane. But the mainstream world is just less tangible. There are so many people involved, it’s hard to figure out the division of power. For us, it’s really easy to figure out on this tour where the van is and where we’re going to park it, things like that. But in the mainstream world, you don’t know who’s in control. You’re almost bred to not have many thoughts, you’re sort of pushed in a direction and you go.

So who’s in control?
A combination of people – the manager; for us it was Billy, the record label. Clear Channel.

From an outsider’s perspective, it really does seem like some monstrous, Kafkaesque organization. I wondered if that was a misconception, but it seems it isn’t.
Yeah, it really is like that. But it’s also kind of slumping too. Except for the really big bands like 50 Cent or something like that. Everyone knows the record labels are going down.

You’ve played in Europe many times. A lot of bands go overseas to find they’re perceived entirely differently than they are in the States. Can you detect any difference between your American and European audiences?
I almost feel like I’m some old blues guy when I go to Europe.

Jelly Roll Pajo?
Exactly. They’re like, ‘This is a guy who made authentic American underground music.’ There’s a different perception. When I play a small town in England, they’re more into it than when I play my hometown where everyone knows who I am.

You’ve just released four on Drag City, the latest in your Audio Tour Diaries series. Can you talk about the impetus behind that series?
I did the first three when I was recording the Zwan record. We recorded for six months in Chicago, 12 hours a day every day. Whenever I had free time I would write these songs and record them on my computer. I wanted to keep my band active during that whole thing, so I decided I’d release these – they’re almost like little journal entries, these songs – like sketches that I could release one every two months. I didn’t want Papa M to die while Zwan was going on.

Early next year, Drag City is releasing a compilation of all your non-Tour Diaries singles, Aerial M and Papa M, and so on.
It’s cool; it’s songs and singles from 1995 to 2000 that were either released just on vinyl and are out of print, or just aren’t around any more. Its kind of cool to go back and listen to that old instrumental stuff I did.

You and Paz Lenchantin (Zwan, A Perfect Circle) are working on new material that may show up on a Papa M full-length. Are there concrete plans to record that yet?
Yeah, when I get back from this tour I’m going to start on it, in December.

How are the songs shaping up with Lenchantin’s contributions?
They’re more elaborate than the Whatever, Mortal folk-based stuff. I’m getting back into dissonance again, and she’s helping me find a balance. I love old traditional music and I love really atonal, dissonant music as well.

I feel like Whatever, Mortal did that a bit. These simple folk songs, but with a subtle, underlying sheet of crackle and drone beneath them.
I’m still pursuing that idea.

Do you have any other exciting projects lined up for the future?
I’ve talked briefly about doing some stuff with Will Oldham and Matt Sweeny. He wants to do a solo record and I might play on that.

What’s the Oldham project about?
We’re thinking about having him write the lyrics for me and I would make music for them.

I’d like to wrap up by asking about any certain artist or genre you’re into right now. Not your influences, just stuff you’re excited about.
Oh, man – I saw Elf.